Discussion las lindas

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jay7777

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Jul 18, 2015
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#1
okay. look. I myself am a huge fan of las lindas. i love the comic with all my respects and i do enjoy all the work chalo, ID_fox, and soulkat have put into this comic. great job guys. really, your all awesome.

sadly, that is not the reason why im here today. no, just the opposite. you see, i love the comic, as does everyone else on this thread. but i can't help but notice all the reviews, and all people who speak about the comic and what it has become. im not gonna lie, most of these reviews aren't pretty, not that i care. i love the comic regardless because 1. it doesn't seem that bad. and 2. i know your all not mayjor artists or writers, so im not expecting that much when i read the comic.

the question im trying to ask here, is that. is there anyway the comic will get better or try to hopefully appeal to the old fanbase it use to have. also if anything, is it possible this comic may go through a reboot, to get the plot line moving again?
 
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#2
I want to start off by saying 'thanks' for voicing your concerns. It's (usually) better to make a discussion of these things instead of running off to some imageboard or webcomic wiki to complain. Those places tend to be nothing but echo chambers lacking in anything constructive to say. However, going back to your post, I'm a little confused about a few things.

First of all, you never exactly specified what was wrong with the comic as it is. You talk about how you "notice all the reviews" and how they "aren't pretty", but that doesn't give us any details about what it is people don't like.

Second, you're asking for the comic to "appeal to the old fanbase". This is sort of a weak point, if a point at all, considering (a) the fanbase is significantly larger and more diverse than it was before and (b) you're speaking vaguely and not explaining what it is exactly that is wrong with the comic.

Now, you did mention one piece of advice (if you'd call it that) by suggesting that the comic go through a reboot in order to "get the plot moving again".

Could you elaborate a little bit on how you think the plot isn't moving, please? As far as I can tell, the plot is gradually moving the comic back to its 'slice of life' theme, although its going just a bit slower than it used to. This is because (a) cast is quite a bit bigger than it was before, which means more time is needed to create character development, and (b) Chalo does additional bonus arcs (e.g., Breasts are the Best, Knighthood) and his Patreon in addition to the comic, which takes up a lot of his time.

Finally, what would a reboot accomplish exactly? Are there certain story elements that you don't like? If anything, doing a reboot of the entire Las Lindas comic would result in slowing down the plot even further because things need to be revisited. Months, if not years, of character development would more-or-less be thrown to the side. That's hardly progress for the story.

I'm sorry, but I'm just not seeing any of your points. I'm hoping there's a discussion to be had here, but you're giving one very drastic solution without presenting any kind of a case for it.
 
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Lemurvid

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Apr 29, 2014
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#3
Yeah, I'm confused. I've certainly not noticed a prevalence of critical comments. LL has a large fanbase, and gets a lot of comments on every page, so there's always going to be discussion, but it's always seemed pretty positive to me. Certainly no consensus for any kind of change.
 

Slappybag

Galactic President Superstar McAwesomeville
Apr 2, 2015
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#4
Well if I'm being honest the first time I heard of Las Lindas was while browsing on tvtropes and while I don't remember the exact trope, it definitely implied this webcomic was of low quality. Upon looking LL up, the first entry was for the Katbox, the second and third were tvtropes, the fourth was porn, and the fifth was "The Bad Webcomics Wiki". So yeah, I've always been aware that this webcomic has its detractors.

Still, while they do make some points about narrative inconsistencies, character development, and Chalo's 'distracting' manner of drawing some female characters, I still find both the plot and the art to be enjoyable.

Really, there are reasons to dislike everything, but what has come out of Las Lindas and the Katbox is really an impressive testament to what creative people can accomplish today.

By "appeal to the old fanbase" I have to assume that this means a return to a smaller cast and previous characterizations, and if that's not what you intended to say, please enlighten me as to your meaning. The plot can admittedly be a bit sluggish today, but as WT acknowledged, this is due to an expanding cast and unless Soulkat decides to kill off some characters this isn't likely to be resolved. Perhaps fewer bonus comics might also fix this, but the issue is that while there are some characters and bonus comics that are divisive, there are just as many people who greatly enjoy them. Miles Lionheart, for example, has both a large amount of hatred and plenty of diehard fans, and even the recently introduced characters have accrued a significant fanbase. In short, there's no fat to trim.

While Las Lindas would certainly fare much better with a reboot than other Katbox webcomics due to its more episodic and arc-focused plotlines instead of an overall plot that would be set back to square one, that would cause more problems than it would fix. Unless all or at least a few of the bonus comics were also abandoned then the major issue would be Chalo and Soulkat's production rates. As stated previously there isn't fat to trim, they're all popular to different people.

While a reboot could be used to fix plot holes, the sheer amount of work that would be undone is astronomical. Las Lindas has been going for ten years, so much would be undone by a reboot. In this case it's better to just focus on improvement rather than rebooting.

@White Tiger I really agree that most locations where you can find critical analysis of something are just "echo chambers". Little new information is said beyond the few rare individuals who provide meaningful feedback, and there is little acknowledgement of positive aspects of the comic. The majority of people just parrot popular opinions to criticize something they read very little of.

TLDR:
Critics of Las Lindas have legitimate points, but a lot of them are trolls and assholes. A reboot would do more harm than good.
 

Lemurvid

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Apr 29, 2014
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#5
Well if I'm being honest the first time I heard of Las Lindas was while browsing on tvtropes and while I don't remember the exact trope, it definitely implied this webcomic was of low quality. Upon looking LL up, the first entry was for the Katbox, the second and third were tvtropes, the fourth was porn, and the fifth was "The Bad Webcomics Wiki". So yeah, I've always been aware that this webcomic has its detractors.
The Bad Webcomics Wiki is just a massive repository of ill-thought-out poison and bile.
They hate pretty much anything furry, anything with a hint of fanservice. They hate all Pixie Trix comics, most things on Keenspot. Apparently. Twokinds is phenomenally racist and Tom is the most evil man on the planet.
It's nothing but personal gripes and assholeism. I visited once, started feeling ill. Stay away. Far away.

No narrative artwork is going to please everyone. No creators are beholden to anyone but themselves. They should be allowed to do what they want with their narrative and characters. You can always chose not to read. Obviously, when money enters the equation, creators start to pay more attention to what their customers. This is nearly always a bad idea.
 

ScorpDK

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Mar 4, 2011
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#6
The Bad Webcomics wiki is just one step away from visiting Encyclopedia Dramatica. And you won't be going to either to read meaningful reviews.
And while I have noticed and mentioned that there are some major inconsistencies in some of the story sections, and have had my fair share of gripes with the artstyle at times - these aren't issues that ruin the comic - If something doesn't cater to your preferences, chances are that it isn't a smoking pile of shit, but merely something you do not enjoy as much as the next guy.
 

Tenjen

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May 19, 2008
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#7
i like its present direction and don't get what this "plot line" is that we're supposed to be moving along on "again".

I am happy with the present direction and path. A reboot is unnecessary and would undo everything we've come towards over many many years.
 
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Hoppy

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Sep 2, 2013
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#8
Just to add my own perception of things, I'm of the opinion that the "plotline" is moving along just fine. With so many characters, of course things go slowly....but I'm more than fine with that, as that means I can likely look forward to YEARS and YEARS worth of Las Lindas in future. (Unless Chalo and crew get sick of it, or something. May the Dragon Lords forbid THAT will ever happen!) In the past few updates, we've seen the guys being typical guys, even after an encounter with a wild Geecku,... Sarah made Rach cry by growing up a bit more and thinking of someone else,... Sunny realizing that she has made a horrible challenge... and now working on a Tootsie/Alejandra 'ship that might float or perhaps will never sail, depending on how Alej feels about the whole idea.

There is a lot going on.

Still. I kinda do get your point, Jay. There are also many other plotlines in the story that have just kinda disappeared, and they seemed pretty interesting when we first got a whiff of them.
I'm patient, tho...and I still love the art (be it ever-so-exagerated, at times) and the humor and drama, so I'm just enjoying what comes along.
 
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Gurren

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Jan 20, 2011
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#9
First off, never take the Bad Webcomics Wiki seriously. Ever. Second, I've seen people that don't like Las Lindas but they keep reading the new pages and lurk the forums to see what we're talking about. A large problem people have with something they don't like is that even though they know they won't like it, they'll still go back next week to read or watch a new entry. They aren't looking for the story to improve and claim "they want to see how bad it can get" so they can always have something to rip into instead of doing something better with their time. That isn't a valid excuse for reading something you don't like, it makes you look stupid actually.

Now, onto other things.

I don't think many of the "Old Fans" are gone from the comic. Some might have lost interest in the comic and its community, it happens. But as far as it's known a large majority of old fans are still here and have stuck with the comic and the forum for years.

Las lindas does have its issues with some story points but it never really had a overarching storyline like that. It was always about "Mora and her farm" which different story lines started her and there. Some of the more interesting ones have been dropped and it's a bit of a bother, but nothing comic breaking and worth the rage some people seem to put out. But there was always room for arcs surrounding the characters and what they do.

Sarah and Rachael want to go somewhere after the girls night out for Rach's birthday? They can.
A small arc where Sunny and Grant hang out? That can be done.
Idward teaching Aliana and Geecku how to function in society? There's room for that.

There's no main plot point they have to rush to get to. There are questions that need to be answered, but not urgently.

As for a reboot, that would cause more problems than fixes. Ten years of Las Lindas and it's other bonus comics suddenly up and not mattering would bother both the fans and the writers because after reading the comic for so long, we'd all be back to square one. Some people would drop the comic because they don't know if another reboot will happen at some point, and it could easily kill Chalo's and/or SK's morale for the comic because of the large workload they'd have to deal with. They'd have to account for the bonus comics too this time instead of how it was when it was just the main Las Lindas comic.
 

ScorpDK

The Thread Ender
Mar 4, 2011
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#10
Also, some of the dropped plotlines were probably too convoluted to be explored, or perhaps even bad; clashing too much with the otherwise lighthearted theme featured thorough most of the comic.
 
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Aeri

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#11
I mean, I don't really have the time or know-how to put up a big para about it, But i'm kinda starting to loose my "Give" of fault acceptance, For example mora is still kinda being a bit.... You know, and having most things just kinda work out for her, Along with Rach never getting any real satisfaction or justice, her personality is just kind of being written out to be fine with what's happening when what's happening is she works for somebody who actively hates her and sticks around for a sister who aside from the tiny birthday party dismisses her concerns about life problems as just being grumpy. A prediction a friend of mine has is that she's going to date or at least bang Miles and start acting notably more positive because she's getting some, already half-flirting with him in the questions-to-the-cast- thing :l.

And I don't know how insane or unfounded these thoughts are, But I just don't know what I'll do if it goes down like that, might even jump ship. Sorry to lay it out like that.
 

SoulKat

Katbox Forum Member
Apr 17, 2007
243
427
#12
the question im trying to ask here, is that. is there anyway the comic will get better or try to hopefully appeal to the old fanbase it use to have. also if anything, is it possible this comic may go through a reboot, to get the plot line moving again?
Trust me, I know. And thank you all for talking about it. Let me explain my thought process on it and what I've had to come to accept to keep writing for LL. But TLDR; You're not getting a reboot. Sorry. But I totally understand why you'd want one. And it's ok to say you don't like LL around here.

Las Lindas was my very first writing project.
I've had ten years of experience since I started. So in a way, it is interesting to see a book written so slowly that it visibly improves over time along with the age and experience of the author. This means that I agree with many, or all, of my critics that Las Lindas, as a whole, is not a good story. I had to confront that so many times and like all professionals, I wanted nothing more than my earlier work to just up and disappear. Which brings me to my next point.

Increment. Do not revisit. Even when you don't like it.
Artists get better over time. Each page's art is looked at as an increment in skill or a change in style. Writing is never treated that way inside of a single work. LL's story will always be judged as a whole. A story's purpose is to teach people empathy through new experiences. It allows you to momentarily become another person and experience something new. When this basic grasp of writing is not understood, you get stories like Las Lindas that are unsatisfying.Yet at the same time, if you constantly retrace and rewrite everything, what do your fans have to grab onto? What can be appreciated if it's all ephemeral and subjected to retcon all the time? Nothing. So what do you do about it? If you have a work you know has problems and yet cannot fix them, how do reconcile? How do you... you know, get better?

"One Character at a Time"
I'm no stranger to negativity when it comes to this comic. And 100% of what critics say is true. But I have to keep going. A new page has to come out because I love my comic and my friends that have come together to support me. So how do I reconcile all of my failures and drag around this boulder of old work? I'm not. I write one character at a time now. One problem at a time. One small insignificant thing at a time now. And when it turns out amazing, I can point to it and say I'm getting better. For the current LL arc, I am writing about Tootsie and Alejandra and I love it. It's liberating. I'm having fun again. Thank you if you made it this far... just one more.

All opinions, no matter what, are valid.
Sounds strange, right? This is the Internet. This is the place where you are plugged into everyone everywhere. How can all opinions be valid if they are contradictory, hasty, impulsive, emotionally-driven... hateful? I read people hating on LL and it kills me... Sometimes (most times) I can't take it and I hide. But I also know that, without fail, WT, Gurren, Tenjen and all of my other fans will be there and comment on my next new page in a manner of hours. That is an honor. An actual, IRL "for real" meaningful honor that makes me feel wonderful. And the transition between those two states? That's called life. Just during writing this post, I was flying high because @Hoppy said they "I can likely look forward to YEARS and YEARS worth of Las Lindas in future" and then @Roxy lays out "But I just don't know what I'll do if it goes down like that, might even jump ship" with regard to Rachael and now I'm worried and thinking about her arc. THAT IS MY ENTIRE LIFE!

All I'd normally have to do in order to stay sane is listen only to the people who like me. And deep down, we know this would make me a terrible person. So let's be frank. We should recognize that all participants have valid experiences and the opinions they give are relevant. The OPs, the Bad Webcomic Wiki, the imageboards... And you.

Unless your opinion is about telling me to quit and kill myself. Then fuck you. :gleeSK:
 
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Teendmax

Katbox Forum Member
Apr 11, 2013
120
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#13
Everything is pretty much already been said but I'm going to try and guess what he means by the Loss of fans I don't think they're lost so much is that they're not posting as much as they used to if you look back at the previous discussion pages you know as soon as shifting who's posting we haven't seen certain fans postings that doesn't necessarily mean that they're not fans they just need to not taking part in the discussion
 

Aeri

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#14
That was neat @SoulKat , I really do kinda like sticking around and such, It's just my two cents though, I became a fan of a character because of things and the things are getting ripped up for complacency with a bad boss, not really supportive sis and a dumb guy.

But what worries me is how easy it is to feel like your opinion really is pissing in the wind, if there was a panel in which Miles takes her up to the hayloft and I was like "Alright gang, I'm done and goodbye." I'm not too sure if anyone would care, at all.
 

Hoppy

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#15
But what worries me is how easy it is to feel like your opinion really is pissing in the wind, if there was a panel in which Miles takes her up to the hayloft and I was like "Alright gang, I'm done and goodbye." I'm not too sure if anyone would care, at all.
If your opinion was just "pissing in the wind", then I wouldn't even bother reading them. You make some good points for me to think about sometimes, and I'm pretty damn certain SK thinks about them, too. So, yeah, if you get pissed and all because of Miles and Rach, then YES, you will be missed. We'll be fine without you, but ideas I don't agree with are what I sure as hell want to be reading!! I don't expand my outlook by reading only people that agree with me, ya know? (Also, I like the art stuff ya do, but that's another topic.)

Same thing with Jay. I don't agree with his points, but I wanna read 'em. Thinking is good.
 

Paradoxfox

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Mar 2, 2011
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#16
What do these troll critics say that LL is doing wrong exactly? We should call them out on these silly 'claims.'

It's a Slice of Life so if they want something more like DBZ then they should read Crest Diaries or Knighthood.
 

ID

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Apr 17, 2007
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#17
In the latter part when I worked on Las Lindas I did not and will not consider places like BadWebComics to be valid sources of critique. I do not believe that they break down the material in good faith. Rather, I believe they do so for the edification of their intended audience which is people who like reading stuff getting torn down. Being a dickhead reviewer is fun and easy, they don't have to actually care about the content they're ripping while at the same time claiming that they do. Or maybe they actually think that being insulting IS good critique. I have been publicly called a coward by one such 'reviewer' for not wanting to be spoon-fed his shit. I also couldn't help but notice that he tended to treat his own critics with similar bad grace as he treated his subject material.

These are people with shitty personalities that don't deserve to be listened to, because they seem to be more interested in 'feeling right' than helping anyone. There are plenty of places one can find good critique and the troll blogs ain't it. The people who constantly hold your hand aren't the ones who are going to help you improve, but the ones who seem to take a sadistic glee in ripping your work are going to sap your morale (unless you're leagues more hardy than I am.) Engaging with them I've discovered is largely useless. They'll typically take what you say and use it to build a straw man that says that you hate -all- criticism.

This belief has only solidified after I stepped away from the Las Lindas and had the opportunity to talk to people who are professionals and know how to give and receive criticism.
 
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Mar 26, 2010
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#18
My only real complaint has less to do with the main story and more to do with the lack of universe stuff. So many questions about the Crests, the War and more serious elements are constantly stifled and left to rot. I also have accepted that I'm more of the fringe of the fans then the focus.

Still do try to remind you guys every now and then a bone or two towards us serious folks wouldn't hurt :)

edit
That's also not to say you guys haven't done a good job sprucing up pervious issues. On top of that you have increased the amount of "serious" story with curran and for that you have my thanks for listening.
 
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Aeri

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#19
My only real complaint has less to do with the main story and more to do with the lack of universe stuff. So many questions about the Crests, the War and more serious elements are constantly stifled and left to rot. I also have accepted that I'm more of the fringe of the fans then the focus.
listening.
And then there's me, "How bout that NanoZell corporation there @Ambar?"
 

Belvarius

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Apr 27, 2007
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#20
My only real complaint has less to do with the main story and more to do with the lack of universe stuff. So many questions about the Crests, the War and more serious elements are constantly stifled and left to rot. I also have accepted that I'm more of the fringe of the fans then the focus.
Some of this is being handled, and quite well I may add, in Knighthood and honestly that may be a better place for it than in the main LL storyline. This is because a lot of the issues about the Crests, war, and Narakhans have a direct impact on that storyline and are of great importance to it's plot. Now they may still have some importance to the main LL story (Mora's father and whether or not she'll ever tell Minos for instance) but they are not as central to LL's story. They're more like, well, that history lesson Ambar gave Sarah way back. Important for world building and trivia but not really essential to a story about a woman trying to rebuild her family farm into a successful business. In light of SK's post I can see why some of these ideas were left behind or shunted to the bonus comics. Even if they were executed superbly in LL they would distract from what it's team wants the story to be about.
 
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#21
Some of this is being handled, and quite well I may add, in Knighthood and honestly that may be a better place for it than in the main LL storyline. This is because a lot of the issues about the Crests, war, and Narakhans have a direct impact on that storyline and are of great importance to it's plot. Now they may still have some importance to the main LL story (Mora's father and whether or not she'll ever tell Minos for instance) but they are not as central to LL's story. They're more like, well, that history lesson Ambar gave Sarah way back. Important for world building and trivia but not really essential to a story about a woman trying to rebuild her family farm into a successful business. In light of SK's post I can see why some of these ideas were left behind or shunted to the bonus comics. Even if they were executed superbly in LL they would distract from what it's team wants the story to be about.
Which is why I'm open to other avenues of story content ala Currans Knight posts. I would really like to revist the war in a proper comic or visual story though. Too much coolness and universe building to be left to just words alone. :D
 

ScorpDK

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#22
Funny thing is, I remember that forced exposition is something a ton of people sneer at - they want to "discover" things, not getting them told in a history lesson. But then, how exactly is a storyline that is focused on such a tiny spot on the worldmap supposed to even do that? It doesn't work, simple as that. You can't please everyone.

You could draw parallels between Las Lindas' universe, and that of Dishonored. There's so much more going on in the world that is being hinted at, and yet, you will probably not get to see most of it, or merely a few glimpses. That's what the side-stories are for, to give you more of the thing you wanted to know more about, such as the Crests, the Knights, and the Narakhan.
[DOUBLEPOST=1437361784,1437361521][/DOUBLEPOST]
I would really like to revist the war in a proper comic or visual story though. Too much coolness and universe building to be left to just words alone. :D
That is also something that we had been throwing towards the writers before - A Light Novel.
A story that only contains a few images for important scenes, they don't even need to be in color, focusing on the writing instead. You could have something short like a 10-15 pages light novel focusing on certain aspects of the world, or character backstory, what-have-you, with 2-3 sketches in-between as illustrations.
But that still requires quite a lot of preparation, time and effort to get done. But it is an idea.
Heck, they could put that as patreon goals and I am sure someone would throw money at it XD
 

fennec

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#25
Actually (going back to the original post) I can't help but see one massive flaw in the argument. A lot of the old fans have stuck around, I mean I've only been reading for a mere four years or so (so I'm still not the original fanbase) but the improvement on writing and character exploration has been amazing, even in that amount of time. A reboot would mean rewriting the original script too, which would ultimately annoy the people who are so attached to the original plot because new things (or small changes to old things) often confuse frighten people. I mean, doing a reboot just for the art is a nice idea, but half the charm of Las Lindas is seeing the journey that it's gone on, both art and writing. The amount of effort that's gone into the evolution of it. Actually, the same goes for pretty much all the comics within the Katbox.
As for the original plot, well it's a slice of life style of comic and life is unpredictable. That's the funny thing about slice of life, or life in general, you can set it all up to go in one direction and yet it goes in another. That's it, that's life. that's how plots can still make sense when they constantly shift and change in a story about the lives of others.
Yeah there's been points where it touches on things that have a grander scheme behind them, but it's a bloody big world that's been created and I doubt there'll ever be enough time to explore it all. The further in depth it goes the more questions will be raised. That's the biggest flaw in Las Lindas, there's a world that people find interesting enough that they want to explore more and more of it but there's just not enough time to learn it all by Las Lindas alone. But hey, what are side comics for?
Anyway, that's an awesome flaw to have in a story, too much interest from fans. No one abandons something because they're interested in it, in fact I'd be bold enough to say that's why people stick around.
Comics have to be gentle in their explanation anyway, or else you risk losing the plot in text. If you want things explained thoroughly in the same number of pages as a comics, it may be best to read a book instead.
And as for critics on the Internet, sadly (and I mean sadly for the valid opinions and points that are made by well articulated arguments) they're about as effective as a Sheppard who stands in the paddock and yells at his sheep for not listening to him. The Sheppard may feel better, but the sheep won't care in the slightest. (Well, maybe Grant, but he'd be doing out of politeness)
Apologies if that little rant seems aggressive or passive aggressive, but I'm using this to vent from other things.
Also, you don't last as long as Las Lindas has without doing a few things right. Just sayin'.

You know what i could do with though? A goddamn map of prism
Only if it has one of the Ye Olde Sea Chart style compasses to indicate north, and a sea serpent in the water somewhere *cough*Mayte Cameo*coughcough*
 
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